Saturday, March 14, 2009

Coup de Culture Alert: Bioethicist Defends Bestiality

Apparently every aberrant behavior is to be normalized, including sex with animals: First it was Peter Singer claiming that bestiality was just two animals rubbing body parts. Then a movie was released sympathetic to the cause. Now, bioethicist Jacob M. Appel, who has called for allowing assisted suicide for the mentally ill and mandatory eugenic genetic screening, also defends bestiality--or perhaps better stated, opposes its legal prohibition--claiming that it might not be abuse, and indeed, "may well be neutral or even pleasurable for the animals."

I have publicly opposed bestiality as a matter of defending human exceptionalism, an issue to which Appel takes specific exception without mentioning me by name. From his column:

Opponents of bestiality often describe themselves as advocates of "human exceptionalism" and express the belief that intercourse with animals debases the dignity of human beings by blurring the lines between people and animals.? (They fail to explain why sex is unique in this manner--why playing Frisbee with a dog, or eating a corned beef sandwich, does not also blur such boundaries). [Me: Surely Appel understands the profound symbolic and intimacy differences between playing frisbee with a dog and having sexual intercourse with her (or him).]

Of course, nobody is suggesting that these critics be forced to sleep with animals, anymore than we would force vegetarians to eat lamb. However, the burden should be placed upon the prohibitionists to explain why a small minority of individuals with non-mainstream sexual interests pose a threat to our overall societal welfare. I leave open the question of how many zoophiles actually live in the United States: The research of sexologists such as Kinsey, as well as a brief survey of the Internet, suggest a considerable number. Needless to say, public animosity--and criminal statutes--likely keep them in the shadows.

Gosh, in the shadows! How cruel.

Sarcasm aside, my one serious foray into this "field," came in the Weekly Standard, in response to objections to legislation in Washington to outlawing bestiality filed in the wake of a man being killed whilst having sex with a horse. If you read the whole thing, I criticized Peter Singer's okaying bestiality and did indeed posit that the real reason for outlawing the practice--beyond the real issue of "abuse" and the surreal concern that "animals can't consent"--is that sex with animals unacceptably undermines human exceptionalism. Here's my conclusion in that regard:
The great philosophical question of the 21st Century is going to be whether we will knock humans off the pedestal of moral exceptionalism and instead define ourselves as just another animal in the forest. The stakes of the coming debate couldn't be more important: It is our exalted moral status that both bestows special rights upon us and imposes unique and solemn moral responsibilities--including the human duty not to abuse animals.

Nothing would more graphically demonstrate our unexceptionalism than countenancing human/animal sex. Thus, when [Washington State Senator Pam]Roach's [anti-bestiality] legislation passes, the law's preamble should explicitly state that one of the reasons bestiality is condemned through law is that such degrading conduct unacceptably subverts standards of basic human dignity and is an affront to humankind's inestimable importance and intrinsic moral worth.
Appel, quoting Brandeis, says outlawing bestiality violates the "right to be left alone." I say permitting it promotes social anarchy, moral disintegration, and a view of humans that is inherently degrading, thereby harming the common good.

In good taste please, what say you?

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38 Comments:

At March 14, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

If humans belonged on a moral pedestal, there wouldn't BE bestiality. I could talk myself blue in the face all day about how "human exceptionalism" misses the point and I'd be talking to my shadow, I know. This is awfully arrogant and self-centered, though, talking about how it affects humans, when all that's necessary is to note that it violates the non-human animals (not to mention nature), and opposing it for that reason occupies a higher moral ground than opposint it for our own sake. SHS does a great service but "human exceptionalism" can't stop the death culture at this rate -- nor has it -- because it stands on arrogant, defensive ground. Those promoting the "culture of death" are arrogant, too, aren't they. The only ones with clean noses in this whole mess are the non-human animals and the humans who consider it unethical to violate them.

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Ianthe: I understand your perspective and disagree with it. But please keep expressing it. That's what the comments are for.

Glad we agree on most everything else, other than animal issues.

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger Alison Hymes said...

All I can up with say in close to good taste is: Gross! And also, isn't this contradicting Peter Singer's equal status for animals because if they have equal status than doing that with an animal could be prosecuted as statutary rape at least.

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger SAFEpres said...

This is my future scenario of a suicide clinic:

"Counselor": What reasons do you have for seeking this medical procedure?

"Patient": Because I'm depressed because of the degradation of our culture, and nothing can be done about it."

"Counselor":"Have you explored all the options?"

"Patient":"Yes, but doctors say that the condition is terminal and is progressing at an alarming rate."

"Counselor: "Why does this impact your decision?"

"Patient": "My child just had an affair."

"Counselor":"With a married person?"

"Patient": "No, with a goat."

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger holyterror said...

I believe that the simplest reason to oppose beastiality is that animals cannot give consent.

"Two animals rubbing their genitals together" could also be a crude and amoral description of rape, you know.

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger holyterror said...

Appel does not effectively address this argument, either.

Interestingly, if you read the Singer piece, there is a bizarre story at the end in which an orangutan is going to -rape? is the only word I can think of - a woman, and the orangutan expert says to the woman, too weak to get away, "Don't worry..." (I'll leave the rest out in deference to Wesley's plea)

Anyway, the point is that Singer uses a completely neutral description of what COULD have happened (but didn't), all without any care as to the violence that would have been done to the victim of this excited orangutan.

So: my long-winded way of saying:
Singer totally downplays sexual violence by an orangutan against a person, in order to say that bestiality isn't so bad after all?

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

holyterror: That part of Singer's review was very disturbing for the very reason you stated.

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

Holyterror and Alison: Exactly. Good one, SAFEpres.

As for the right to be left alone, the non-human animals have it, and those favoring bestiality don't acknowledge and respect it.

It's like what they say about child molesters being incapable of interacting with those their own age. Why would anyone want to do this in the first place? It's abuse, to put it mildly, and of course it isn't neutral for the animals; it's destructive to them. They have psyches.

But what bothers me about the human exceptionalist objection to this is that it focuses on the degrading of humans, and not on degrading of animals; it's humans doing this, not the animals'idea, and we can't respect ourselves if we don't respect them, which is why animal experimentation ends up being bad for humans, which is our own fault and we asked for it, as it's wrong. If humans are entitled to a special status they don't need to be defending it and worrying about it; they should ad would just be proving it.

 
At March 14, 2009 , Blogger Lampshade said...

"...and of course it isn't neutral for the animals; it's destructive to them. They have psyches."

How is it destructive to them? I do not find it one bit hard to believe that an animal could enjoy having sex with its owner. If someone bends over and ol' Fido gives it to them on his own accord because he likes it, how is that hurting the animal? Do you think a horny dog cares whether he is having sex with a human or other dog? The idea that is not okay soley because they cannot "consent" with speech like humans is absurd. They also don't "consent" to being confined to our backyards/houses or having their reproductive organs taken out either.

Not that I advocate bestiality. I am very much against it, but not because it is animal abuse, but because it is human abuse.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are certain things that people just don't do, whether it's because they degrade our own morality, because they degrade the morality of others, or because they are simply considered wrong. Singer typically attacks anything that falls under the "it's just wrong" label, like a spoiled child who is angry Mommy won't tell him why. He is, after all, the supposed ethicist that support infanticide because infants aren't actually human.

Of course these people want to knock humans off the "pedestal of moral exceptionalism". If human beings are nothing more than highly intelligent animals, then nothing we do it wrong. Dogs don't commit crimes - they commit acts which are counter to what we prefer and expect. Reducing human beings to that level allows for a whole host of anomalous and anti-social behavior that do nothing but satisfy the senses.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

Animals do have psyches. This is not good for them. Focusing on how it "degrades" humans is like Alec Baldwin yelling at his daughter about how her not answering the phone HIM feel. Secure in our worth, we would focus on the victim of human wrongdoing, and have the strength to deal with wrongdoers effectively instead of being preoccupied with defending our turf position against which there is no competition from without, only from within, and the focus would be not on how the capacity for evil is part of being exceptionally human, but merely on combatting evil. I keep saying that human exceptionalism is inefficient and therefore cannot be aas effective as it wants to be, but noooooobody heeeears me.. It's narcissistic to do all this focusing on how "special" humans are, especially in view of what a mess humans have made for themselves.

"Non-mainstream sexual interests"? "Zoophiles"? That;s not unlike calling the concept that non-human animals can't consent surreal. Of course they can't consent and that's very simple.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger SAFEpres said...

Ianthe-

I think what also makes this part of the broader agenda that Wesley is discussing is that the same people defending bestiality are also defending futile care laws, euthanasia, and other practices that devalue the worth of human beings by compromising equal rights. It's not as if you have people who advocate against such things running around trying to defend "the right to be left alone." Such people are too busy attempting to deflect the damage done by the aforementioned group. Thus, sex with animals is part of uprooting the concept of human dignity because of it's place within the sphre of the other de-personalizing practices that these bioethicists support.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Bjorn said...

Wesley, Lanthe, I think you're both right.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Jason said...

I actually did a phone interview with Jacob Appel a while ago (http://is.gd/ntbW) and
Peter Singer (http://is.gd/ntcf) and even Wesley Himself (tp://is.gd/ntcm) and I think you are a bit harsh on Dr Appel. I agree his ideas are barbaric, but assuming he was telling the truth in the interview I did with him, it seems he is more interested in asking the questions and coming to answers about them, rather than advocacy as such.

Certainly it seems debate on a topic like this might be useful in the public square and anybody that encourages that should be applauded.

The alternative is that people will appeal to emotionalism and the like to get these sorts of laws passed instead of reasoned debate.

Though it is unfortunate on some level that debate is needed at all.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

SAFEpres: I absolutely agree with you on the point you made, and I absolutely agree that it is part of that overall framework. I think that putting the focus on ourselves weakens the potential for fighting what is in that overall framework, whereas putting the focus on the "other" (the non-human animals) exercises our humanity and puts us in balance, making us stronger in the fight, and would lead to a society in which that framework would be less tolerated and have less room in which to exist.

Bjorn: Exactly. (and thanks)

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Jason: Why is it that all the questions he asks cut one way? It is an old trick, to undermine important moral beliefs and principles, but then just say you are asking questions. Another trick, Singer is good at by the way, is using passive language. So, when advocating the infanticide of a baby born with Down, he says that parents should be "able to say no and start again."

Should we respectfully debate drowning kittens for the education of seeing what happens when an animal dies? Some things are beneath "respectful debate." Surely bestiality should be one. Alas, in our anything goes society, anything is debatable except smoking tobacco and Al Gore's assertions.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Jason said...

Actually I agree with you Wesley. Ideally the subject should be beyond debate. Unfortunately it isn't.

So at least if someone claims to want to engage in reasoned debate, that has to be better than those that just throw labels around that are designed to shut down debate. Terms like "bigot", "homophobe", "racist", "fascist", etc.

We should encourage the open discussion rather than the hyper-emotionalism that so often typifies proponents of some of these ideas. Exposing the ideas to the light is probably the best way to deal with them.

Proponents for evil flourish when they can use euphemism and misdirection (as you well know) so getting them to stand up and be honest should be a good thing.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger HistoryWriter said...

lanthe wrote: "As for the right to be left alone, the non-human animals have it, and those favoring bestiality don't acknowledge and respect it."

Agreed. One might tell that to them on their way to the slaughterhouse as well. I don't believe they gave consent to be our dinner either.

Anyway, the whole issue is thought-provoking. I sat back in my easy chair, poured a shot of Woolite, and considered the attractiveness of sheep ---which, BTW, the Bible insists on portraying us humans as (e.g.Psalms 23 and 107; John 21: 15-16; John 10: 1-21, and so forth). Sheep are, by and large, pleasant, easy-going and non-combative, which one might argue, actually puts them a peg or two higher than humans on the "exceptionalism scale." As for having sex with them,, I can't say what that's like from personal experience, although having met any number of people from backwaters like Mississippi, Arkansas and West Virginia one must wonder how much better or worse they would come off for the comparison.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

History Writer: Woody Allen thought of the Woolite joke first. It is how the Gene Wilder character, pictured in the post, ends up; a derelict drinking Woolite after his beloved sheep is retaken by her shepherd.

There are natural uses of animals and unnatural uses of animals, aren't there? A lion doesn't have sex with the zebra she kills for food. Or is "natural" also a term that we can throw into the waste bin of history in our hedonistic drive to have no limits at all on personal moral conduct?

You shouldn't have such a superior view of other people, you know. It may not be warranted.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Jason said...

Actually Wesley I think the problem is that the term natural has become corrupted. It seems there are two terms, what you might call Natural and natural.

Natural is the proper end things are put to, and natural would seem to be whatever ones heart desires.

So bestiality is not Natural because having sex with animals is not a proper end for human beings to pursue but it is natural because some people desire to do it.

The aim seems to be to get this reasonably well intuited distinction to be dissolved and make natural a synonym of Natural.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger holyterror said...

You can make a secular argument for the use of animals for food, tools and shelter. Caveat: In order for it to stand, all manners of animal use and killing would have to be done mindfully, and gratefully, and without unnecessary waste. In today's world I believe that vegan living is impossible for most of the world and for anyone to suggest otherwise is being blind to your own grocery-store privilege. (Many people have to take what they can get for food.)

Anyway, there is NO argument from utility for human-animal sex. That is another irony of Singer's piece, published in some utilitarian journal. Humans can and do survive without genital stimulation. There is no way you can argue that it is necessary for human survival to use an animal for sex in the sae way we use them for food, etc.

Although, again, I do believe that our current system of mass-producing and slaughtering animals is highly immoral.

 
At March 15, 2009 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Jason. Well stated. I may use that someday.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger HistoryWriter said...

Wesley,, we were talking about "consent", not about "natural and unnatural uses."

Holyterror wrote: "Anyway, there is NO argument from utility for human-animal sex." Perhaps not, but remember: the Bible says "the good shepherd KNOWS his sheep."

As for folks from the backwaters of Mississippi, Arkansas and West Virginia --- well, it's not my "superior view" that leads me to the conclusion that copulating with sheep might be preferable. It's a reasoned conclusion, based on my having been unfortunate enough to have visited those places and observed the locals firsthand. I daresay, it might even be a workable method for them to beget fewer of their own kind.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger Ken Crawford said...

I have two thoughts on this one:

Thought #1:

I love this surprisingly obvious contradiction within three sentences:

"However, the burden should be placed upon the prohibitionists to explain why a small minority of individuals with non-mainstream sexual interests pose a threat"

And

"suggest a considerable number. Needless to say, public animosity--and criminal statutes--likely keep them in the shadows."

So what is it "a small minority" or a huge under-current of people in the shadows?

Thought #2:

Wesly, I think Appel (or at least people who think similarly) really don't see the difference between playing frisbee with a dog and sex. They've made sex such a casual thing having nothing to do with procreation and the fundamentals of the creation and propogation of life, that it might as well be playing frisbee.

What do people do on a date? Well, they can either go to a movie after dinner or they can go have sex. They're morally equivalent actions.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger SAFEpres said...

HW-that is the most eugenically minded, snobby, disgusting thing I have heard in a while. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'll tell you something right now-I'd rather be one of those "backwoods" people you disdain and be a nice person who respects everyone than be someone who is full of himself that he suggests bestiality as a way to prevent reproduction of those he considers to be less evolved than himself. Furthermore, some of us don't particularly appreciate the prejudice you just espoused. Perhaps that indicates some flaw in the bigots' genetic make up-should we hope that you have sex with an animal, so that you will not reproduce, either? No, we should not. To rectify your own problems with bigotry, I suggest that you get off your ego trip and stop pretending that your genes are
inherently superior to those with whom you disagree.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

They do worse to that with kittens in laboratories all the time, and it's not debated ENOUGH.

One animal killing another for food doesn't involve and isn't supposed to involve consent, and it's part of nature. Sex in which humans are involved is supposed to involve consent, and other animals follow nature keep it within their own species.

I have to agree that other animals are ahead of us in certain respects in which humans consider themselves capable of being superior if they choose to. Animals don't choose wrong.

As someone who lived in New York for years and found it, as an understatement, sympatico, but whose ideal life would involve living alone in Appalachia with a barbed wire fence, a still, and a dog and a shotgun whose jobs would be to run off infernal revenooers, I find the comments about "hillbillies" particularly objectionable. The only problem with New York is that it can make one's viewpoint insular. It can be a difficult place, mindset, and frame of reference to get out of. Also, if legalization of assisted suicide doesn't place others at risk of euthanasia, how is how many "hillbillies" there are pose a threat to New Yorkers? Actually it sounds like it's the other way around. Oh, well, now I've opened a whole Pandora's box, haven't I.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger holyterror said...

Um , why are we bothering to respond to HistoryWriter if he is not making any coherent observations or arguments?

Not to be mean, WEsley or anyone, but this place has been quite an intelligent and respectful discussion as long as I have been reading, and someone who can't take the topic without substituting 6th-grade humor for discussion really shouldn't be entertained, addressed or even shamed, in my opinion.

HW-- you hav had interesting (even if I disagreed) things to say in the past, I hope you will get back on track.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

holyterror: I try to give as much free reign here as I can. I don't allow profanity or ad hominem. But HW's comment was inside the line. Besides, sometimes what someone says, and thinks, is very illuminating.

 
At March 16, 2009 , Blogger holyterror said...

Wesley,
I get what you are saying.

I was not advocating your censorship, either, just a little social "pressure" to reinforce "good behavior" and give no incentive for "bad", lol.

 
At March 17, 2009 , Blogger Donnie Mac Leod said...

Humans are not and never will be neutral to all the other species of this planet. We are the moralists and rightly so. Suck it up and enjoy women as men should and men as woman should, because Fido will never pass the moral equivalency test and i suspect fluffy the lamb is even less understanding of morality or innocence.

 
At March 17, 2009 , Blogger Donnie Mac Leod said...

Wesley J. Smith said...

Jason: Why is it that all the questions he asks cut one way? It is an old trick, to undermine important moral beliefs and principles, but then just say you are asking questions. Another trick, Singer is good at by the way, is using passive language. So, when advocating the infanticide of a baby born with Down, he says that parents should be "able to say no and start again."

Should we respectfully debate drowning kittens for the education of seeing what happens when an animal dies? Some things are beneath "respectful debate." Surely bestiality should be one. Alas, in our anything goes society, anything is debatable except smoking tobacco and Al Gore's assertions.



A very good point Wesley. Especially since most ARA claim we are killing innocent animals pretending it isn't an amoral food choice the same as with wolves or bears. However those same philosophers are denying the morality that bestiality destroys in the human spectrum.

 
At March 17, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

Lampshade: By its nature, it's a mutual thing, and thus if it's bad for us it's bad for us, and if it's bad for us, it's bad for them. We aren't fully human if we aren't concerned about "them" too, and don't approach the issue from the standpoint of their rights, their integrity -- by which we confirm our own.

 
At March 17, 2009 , Blogger holyterror said...

Just to add to the fray, a friend of mine, who agrees with Singer and Appel, is arguing that sexual intercourse is no different from a backrub for animals; it is only humans' socialization to believe that genital touching is special, that makes it so for us. But for them, it's no big deal so why does it matter?

He is also a vegetarian who gets really angry about the use of animals for food, etc. Trying to talk to him about this is mind-numbingly strange.

 
At March 17, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

Holyterror: Have you asked him how he knows how it is for them? His take on it is patronizing to them. They have minds, and the mind and the body in all animals, including us, are connected. What nature has designed them to do on instinct (as if we don't have instinct) at times determined by nature -- with each other -- doesn't mess them up in the head. I think that bestiality does, and they just can't tell us.

 
At March 17, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

And those of us who can think straight, which is most, to say the least, of the human race re this issue, think that anyone who thinks that bestiality is ok,let alone who does it, is messed up in the head.

 
At March 18, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

I just looked more than in passing at that picture of Gene Wilder and that sheep. It's only a movie, but nevertheless, THAT SHEEP (EWE) DOES NOT LOOK HAPPY. She looks like she would much rather be where nature intended her to be, doing what nature intended her to do, eating grass and bleating and huddling with her own kind. There's something queasy about bestiality being even a joke. And when something makes us queasy, that's all we need to know.

Vivisection makes us queasy, too. We do one thing that makes us queasy, the door is open to others.

 
At March 19, 2009 , Blogger Donnie Mac Leod said...

Vivisection does not make me the least bit queasy. In fact I embrace it's Science because I have seen cancer, diabetes, heart patients that struggle for each breath families weeping over grave sites of folk that would have survived ten years later as cures were found in medical research that came foreward in the 1950-1980 era and even more break throughs are coming. Nope I feel queasy about using animals for sex but never as food or medical breakthroughs. I feel more compassion for the family that lost a child to juvenile diabetes twenty years ago then I would for binky the lab rat. In fact my sand lot best friend died of diabetes and resultant kidney malfunctions when he was seven. Today he would have been a survivor and I would still have my best friend from 53 years ago.


My own dad was diagnosed as a severe diabetic who had to take insulin every day of his life. I buried him in 2003 at 73 years of age. He would have been about 25 to 30 when he would have died without animal research. High praise to Banting and Best for finding out what a dog's pancreas can do for a human being.


My wife was adopted because her parents lost seven children in a row. One got to live for a full day before passing on. 6 years after my wife was adopted her adoptive parents had a naturally born healthy baby boy. Reason was the testing on rhesus monkeys which proved that jaundice babies that die at birth is directly linked to blood type clashes between the anti coagulants of one blood type in one parent destroying the offspring's survival chances.



Then I also had a mom that was a healthy normal child till age seven. She was then stricken by Romatic fever. Net result was she was an invalid for a year. She had to eat raw liver for a year during her recovery and her heart valves were permanently impaired. Because of folks like Dr. Blalock & Vivien Tomas and their work with blue babies the heart was at long last operable because they tried dogs, as patients first. My mom had her first open heart surgery where pig skin valves were inserted when she was 56 . She should never have survived that long but for drugs tested on animals such as digitalis. Yet my mom died at 78 in 2002. I feel no queasyness because I have had a good life do to medical research that allowed my children to share such great family moments with folks that wouldn't have seen me graduate grade school if it weren't for animal research.


The fact that the median age of the average life span jumped from 1939 year of 49 years to 2008 life span of 80.9 tells me that many great moments were shared because we had medical research.

 
At March 20, 2009 , Blogger Unknown said...

I don't think that the good shepherd knowing his sheep means THAT, if the Bible is what it is used as...

Wesley: Nor sea kittens! Not that they can be drowned, if fish can't be drowned, but in any event, whatever the equivalent for fish would be.

Donnie: I feel for your losses and for those who have suffered. My own father had rheumatic fever as a child and died of the asthma with which it left him at 67, and I know what it is to grieve those who suffered and died when they might and would not have. But vivisection, like jokes about bestiality, does make us queasy, and for good reason. Both my parents suffered terribly at the hands of doctors whom a medical establishment made callous by animal experimentation, and I myself have been the victim of medical malpractice as the result of ethics abandoned in favor of a zeal for experimentation. When I was being treated to remedy some of the effects, which had very nearly cost my life, I saw asthma patients benefitting greatly from the same treatment and would cry because it had not been available to my father years before. But that treatment had not been developed via animal experimentation. The system of medicine we have here is barbaric in comparison to others which are light years ahead of it and which, in its arrogance, ignorance, and greed, our medical establishment refuses to acknowledge, let alone study, and with barbarity comes callousness and cruelty of which many human patients, not just laboratory animals, are helpless victims. It is not right that some should suffer as they do so that others may benefit, and there is more benefit in more sophisticated systems of medicine than the one which relies on animal experimentation.

 

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