More Evidence of Chinese Organ Harvesting Abomination
Increasingly, it looks as if China is harvesting organs from unwilling Falun Gong and others for sale on the open market. Canadian human rights activists David Kilgour and David Matas have issued a second report, this time including interviews with organ recipients. I haven't read the new one yet, but the first one chilled me to my bones--about which I wrote last summer.
If this is happening, however, we need not cast all blame on the immoral Chinese. We need to also look in a mirror. Organs wouldn't be harvested for sale unless there were willing buyers. Thus, just like slavery was profitable because of non slave holders' support, the same is true of what appears to be a growing black market in organs. People should be ashamed to go to China to buy organs. But increasingly, they are not. Last April, my wife, Debra J. Saunders, wrote about this phenomenon in one of her very best columns in the San Francisco Chronicle called, suitably enough, "American Vampire."
I will follow up as time allows. In the meantime, throughout the world human life is being reduced to a mere commodity on many different levels. Such is the natural course when we reject the idea of human exceptionalism and the intrinsic worth of all human life.
posted by Wesley J. Smith @ 1:36 PM
28 Comments
28 Comments:
Mr. Smith, you should read it. It offered no new evidence, other than some folks went to China for organ transplant. There's no proof these organ were from FLG disciples.
That's while Falun Gong propaganda has been discredited by multiple undercover investigations.
US government and Chinese dissident investigations:
1) http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html
2) http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm
http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492
3) http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_Stroke%20TrialProtocol%20synopsis.pdf (page 3)
As you can see, the hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a Malaysian health care company and is subject to oversight beyond Chinese authority.
Mr. Smith, in our own transplant industry there exists "wallet biopsy", where the uninsured are kept off the wait list while the wealthy receives organ in mere days.
Does that prove we too are selling organs?
I can count on you to show up every time the subject arises, Bobby. You didn't disappoint. But recall, China has already admitted to selling organs from condemned prisoners. Not nice.
That's very different than the vivisection claim Falun Gong is making isn't it?
I really don't understand why you hate China so much, that good Christians like Kilguor and yourself is willing to worship in the alter of anit-Christian cult (and their anti-China politics.)
I'm not sure if you know this, Falun Gong's living god claims Jesus only saves white people (while he, as a more powerful god can save everyone.)
Here's Li Hongzhi's lecture on racial purity in case you are interested:
http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/pdf/sydney.pdf
Bobby: Christianity has nothing to do with it. This is a matter of human rights. I don't hate China, and I certainly don't hate Chinese people. But the People's Republic of China is a tyranny. And it executes prisoners and sells their organs, as the govt. has admitted. And it arrests and imprisons Falun Gong for no good reason that I can determine. And there is evidence that some Falun Gong are killed for their organs.
Time for an independent international investigation with full access throughout China for the investigators. If the country would ever permit such a thing, which seems doubtful.
Mr. Smith, China's human rights record has nothing to do with the facts at hand that suggest Falun Gong's vivisection claim is bogus. Matter of fact Kilgour's statements since July 06 has gong from "Auschwitz" to "unethical".
What happened to the vivisection claim? Falun Gong even said organs were harvested in NE China and shipped to Thailand for sale - while the physical distance proves it is not possible.
Falun Gong also claimed Chinese embassies are harvesting points where live humans were shipped to the embassy, their organs remove, and body incinerated.
Kilgour didn't even bother to cover these claims.
And weither China has good reason to sanction their cults is their business, especially when we have torched the Davidians ourselves.
San Francisco FLG expert Samual Lou's blog documented the death and insury FLG had caused in China:
http://falungonginfo.org/
The FLG you see in America today is not the same thing.
And I don't suppose we should compromise our sovereignty and allow unfettered access so others can investigate our transgressions.
Abu Gahraib and Guantanamo comes to mind.
Ah, I love the smell of moral equivalency and relativism in the morning.
Yes, Mr. Ford, you are correct; I do not like Falun Gong.
I reject Falun Gong's racist and anti-Christian teachings. Christ is not a lesser god that only saves white people, and the inter-racial children in my family are not products of chaos, degeneration.
These cultish teachings are not presented to mainstream America, rather hidden behind "healthy exercise, persecution" PR.
And Mr. Smith, you are correct - none of this has anything to do with the fact mulltiple undercover investigations took place last year and discredited Falun Gong's vivisection allegation.
Gentlemen, my apologies for bringing up the wild tangents.
The FLG has the right to believe Jesus only saves white people, and the Chinese government has the right to stop cult followers from gutting themselves to free a mystical wheel, agreed?
Now let's stick to the facts. How about the fact the Kilgour report has been discredited by congressional researchers?
In "The Collateral of Suppression", a report critical of China written for Senator Dianne Feinstein, member of US Congressional Executive Committee on China (CECC), congressional researchers Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum were quoted:
"Emma Ashburn, a research associate at the Congressional-Executive Committee on China (CECC), said that the Matas-Kilgour report really “offered nothing new” in terms of evidence on the matter of organ harvesting. The evidence they did collect, namely the phone calls and testimonies, were dubious in their objectivity.
Specialist in Asian Affairs at the Congressional Research Service, Thomas Lum, noted that the evidence could have easily been distorted. The individuals calling the hospitals were all affiliated with FLG, and Lum said that it is unlikely for doctors and officials working for the state to casually divulge such sensitive and damaging information so easily.
Moreover, Lum’s efforts to contact both the Chinese journalist and doctor’s wife have been fruitless, as FLG members direct all communications toward these individuals and they often do not respond. Harry Wu, a longtime political activist known for his hardline anti-PRC views, announced on August 9, 2006 that he would challenge the allegations made by FLG about targeted organ harvesting, especially the claim about the Sujiatun concentration camp.
About the report, the South China Morning Post reports, “Mr. Wu, who has spent 15 years gathering evidence on the harvesting of organs from executed Chinese prisoners, said the information was based on the testimony of two witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information. He believed the reports were fabricated.” Wu had tried to follow up with the witnesses just as Lum had—to the same futility. In the face of these criticisms, including from even Wu, who formerly held friendly relations with FLG, all things considered the allegations FLG has made about a targeted campaign of state-sponsored genocide are most likely untrue."
It's not really all that important to me whether the Chinese are or aren't carrying out a _targeted_ campaign of organ harvesting from FG members.
Look, I think there's a problem here with missing the forest for the trees. Let's try a few clear propositions:
1) China (by its own admission)harvests organs from executed prisoners.
2) China executes Falun Gong members. (Is this not correct.)
3) It's wrong to do #1, whatever the evils committed by the executed prisoner, and it's wrong to do #2 if the person's only crime is belonging to a weird cult.
4) It's plausible, therefore, that China has harvested at least some organs from executed Falun Gong members.
But frankly, I'd be pretty upset if they'd harvested them from convicted murderers (though I support the death penalty), and I'd be at least as upset if they'd harvested them from executed prisoners who were merely political prisoners and not FLG members.
So let's keep our eye on the ball, here. What's the real atrocity? It's a) harvesting organs from executed people at all, and b) to make matters worse, executing political prisoners who have committed no crime worthy of death and harvesting organs from them among the others.
That's what I'm interested in.
The worst thing of all about this whole macabre story is that they kill the prisoners/Falun Gong practitioners on demand. As soon as a matching donor is found, that prisoner dies in the course of the organ removal (theft). It seems China has decided that if money can be made, it's okay to treat human beings as a commodity. Kilgour called this "carnivore capitalism." The butchers in Beijing have reached a new low with this one.
Lydia: Indeed. And it demonstrates an utter disrespect for intrinsic human dignity.
Kevorkian wanted to conduct medical research on executed prisoners here. He was kicked out of every prison. Only then, did he look to the disabled and ill to fulfill his obsession.
Lydia, I find your "so what" attitude troubling. After all, the accusation IS _targeted_ campaign of organ harvesting from FG members.
And you now say, in light of the facts cited discrediting Falun Gong's allegation, that the allegation is not all that important?
If we in the west can not be precise with the facts, only resort to nefarious political indictment, why should anyone take what we say seriously?
Lydia, I hope you will never be convicted by inference:
1) It is not correct to say China executes FLG disciples. There have been isolated cases of abuse and death of disciples under administrative detention, similiar to our own imperfect law enforcement system where African American citizens often die while under police custidy.
And yes, Chinese authority too investigate and punish officials who commit crimes, as the mis-used autopsy photos from Falun Gong demonstrates
The mis-represented autopsy photo in the Kilgour Report, Appendix 20 Case 1, for exmaple. Independent pathology review contradicted Kilgour's conclusion:
a) it is an autopsy photo; the baseball stitch sutures and neck incisions to reveal the hyoid bone proves it (hyoid bone provide evidence of strangulation)
b) it in no way proves vivisection
c) removal of organ is consistant with widely accepted autopsy procedure.
2) Chinese laws on organ donation permits death row inmates to consent to, and apply for organ donation. While the law is clear not a drop of blood can be taken until petition is complete, there have been isolated cases of abuse and circumventing of stated laws.
PRC is not the only country that allows this. Our friend ROC(Taiwan) had similiar laws until 2001.
Also in US organ donation by the condemmned are allowed on a case-by-case basis (mostly to relatives), and there are state legislations in proposal.
In some EU states with "presumed consent" laws, dead people can consent to organ donation.
As you can see, the organ donation issue is not only debatable, is it debatable in China and elsewhere.
Dear Bobby Fletcher:
Like you, I am a Christian (Catholic to be percise). Like you, I belive that Christ died for the sake of all, and that He and He alone offers salvation. Like C. S. Lewis, I believe that Christ can save everyone, even if one does not personally know Him, because all things are possible through Christ, so I pray and hope for the salvation of all people.
I'm getting this out of the way early, so that there is no doubt about where you and I stand.
Now then.
The evidence you produce does not convince me that the Chinese government does not sell human organs. That is what my concern is about. Organ harvesting, whether it be from Falun Gong members, random citizens, prisoners, whatever, is wrong. Period. If an inmate chooses to donate his organs, that still does not justify harvesting and selling them. The human body must not be sold, in any part.
God does not want us messing around with His temples. Willing donation with no restitution is a blessing. Unwilling donation, or selling rather than donating, is a horrible offense against God. It cheapens His image-bearers.
Using inmates for their organs (which the Chinese Governemnt has admitted to) is twice as bad, because it offends God twice - first by turning His temple into a buyable "product," and second because it relegates one class of His image-bearers to the dust bin.
All people, whether we agree with their philosophies or not, are made in the image of God. We, as humans, do not have the right to do as we choose with other human beings. We don't own each other. Everything and everyone on this earth is property of God.
The Chinese government is atheistic. This is a fact I have read time and time again. Knowing that they do not share in the Christian belief that all men are made in God's image, I am going to listen closely to any complaints that are made that the government is abusing people, any people.
I don't like the Falun Gong. I disagree with them totally. But I respect their right to live, else why would God put them here? HE is the only one who may ultimately judge them. We, as Christians, are commanded to love and pray for those we disagree with, by Christ himself. Whether any of us like it or not, we're all brothers.
I'm not saying the tales aren't exaggerated - I don't know if they are or not. I'd have to see more research done by someone else. I do know that people who refuse to see God in others have often accused others of blowing things out of proportion (Neo-Nazis and white supremacists often claim that the Jews made up the story that Nazis killed people in gas chambers, and many white supremacists come right out and say that "black" people were disorderly after the emancipation of the slaves, and that's why there were lynchings, and completely overlook the racial aspect).
I would rather err on the side of caution and hold the Chinese government accountable for its behavior - let them PROVE that they're not violating human rights - and try to protect the Falun Gong from being slain for organs, if for no other reason than that's what the Lord Christ told us to do.
Finally, as to "wallet biopsy" as you put it, if that is what happens in our own country, then we must be held as accountable as the Chinese are. You used the fact that the US does something wrong to justify the Chinese government doing something wrong, and that's ridiculous. We have to get the log out of our own eye, yes. We should do that, and then get the speck out of our brother's eye, but that doesn't mean there's no speck in his eye. Don't ever think that there isn't.
TE, first of all, selling organ is very different than the "vivisection", "Auschwitz" allegation Falun Gong is making.
I don't believe I've used the short commings in our own transplant industry to justify China's problems. I used the point to demonstrate the accusation of selling organs is dubious and politically charged.
Just like our own transplant industry, in China the money is not for the avilable organ, but to pay for the procedure.
So now the "Auschwitz" allegation against China has been reduced to "ability to pay", something our own society sturggle with.
I'm sorry, Bobby, but your rampant moral equivalence approach just totally undermines your credibility with me. To hear you talk, anyone would think the PRC has no political prisoners (or that they have political prisoners only, by some weird logic, "just like the U.S. does"), that the PRC is not a communist country with little regard for the freedom of its citizens, that the PRC does not engage in religious persecution, etc. In other words, you just sound like an apologist for what is well-known, on independent grounds, to be a repressive regime with little regard for its citizens' rights. I know this for reasons separate from the allegations of organ selling. Do you also claim that forced abortions are "isolated incidents" in China? How about the imprisonment of dissident Christians?
And you even go so far as to claim that the U.S. sells organs in the same sense that the Chinese government sells them. Puh-leeze. At that point, I see no reason why I should give any credibility at all to your confident and dismissive assertions that the PRC govt. doesn't execute FG members just for being FG members, or that organ harvesting without consent (what sort of "consent," one wonders?) is also limited to "isolated incidents," and so forth.
Great post and comments, Wesley. I see it didn't take long for "bobby fletcher" to show up to do what he always does on such threads. He has been a regular on my posts on Chinese organ harvesting, and always has a well-rehearsed combination of denials and moral equivalence arguments.
He lost all credibility with me when I saw the other blogs he maintains besides "Sujiatun: Fact or Fiction"...like one called "The Myth of the Tiananmen Square Massacre" (I kid you not)
Dan Wismar
Wizblog
Dan, I welcom your verification and correction on my Sujiatun citations, such as:
- US embassy's undercover investigation
- long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu's secret investigation
- Congressional researcher's criticism of the Kilgour report
- Kilgour report's mis-representation of autopsy photo (Appendix 20, Case 1) as evidence of organ harvesting
- Epoch Times' financial connection with Falun Gong leadership
My blog on passive Journalism and media's mis-reporting on TAM cited sources such as Columbia School of Journalism and PBS' Tank Man.
Again, any correction is welcomed.
Dan: Thanks.
I just read Wesley's earlier NRO article on the first report. Very balanced and rational. Not jumping to conclusions nor ignoring evidence. The jump in numbers is astounding, and the advertisements for organ matching within a week, no brain-dead donors, were very disturbing indeed. I liked your "search warrant" analogy, Wesley. Not that anyone is going to be allowed to look into this. The PRC just stands on its sovereignty and continues to mistreat its citizens, as we've seen in the coercive population control situation.
This is what it says in "bloody Harvest," the second Kilgour/Matas report, on the photo of Wang Bin, which Bobby tries to make out is the photo of a legitimate autopsy--as if the Chinese government cares enough about the Falun Gong that they would try to determine the cause of death:
"In the first version of our report, appendix twelve had a photo of a
person with stitches after his body was cut open to remove organs. One comment we received back is that the stitches the photos show areconsistent with an autopsy.
We observe that organs may indeed be removed for autopsies in order to
determine the cause of death. A corpse which has been autopsied may wellhave stitches similar to those shown in the photo. Outside of China,except for organ donors, that is likely the reason why organs would be removed from a corpse.
Similarly, outside of China, when people are blood tested, typically,
the test is done for their own health. However, the suggestion that
Falun Gong practitioners who are tortured to the point of death are
blood tested for their health or that practitioners who are tortured to death are autopsied to determine the cause of death belies the torture experience.
The corpse whose photo we reproduced was that of Wang Bin. Beatings
caused the artery in Mr. Wang's neck and major blood vessels to break.
As a result, his tonsils were injured, his lymph nodes were crushed, and several bones were fractured. He had cigarette burns on the backs of his hands and inside his nostrils. There were bruises all over his body. Even though he was already close to death, he was tortured again at night. He finally lost consciousness. On the night of October 4, 2000, Mr. Wang died from his injuries.
The purpose of an autopsy report is to determine the cause of death when
the cause is otherwise unknown. But in the case of Wang Bin, the cause
of death was known before his organs were removed. The suggestion that
Wang bin would be autopsied to determine the cause of death after he was tortured to death is not plausible. There was no indication that the family of Wang Bin was asked for consent before the organs of the victim were removed nor provided an autopsy report afterwards. The suggestion
of an autopsy is not a tenable explanation for the stitches on Wang
Bin's body."
This is what it says in "bloody Harvest," the second Kilgour/Matas report, on the photo of Wang Bin, which Bobby tries to make out is the photo of a legitimate autopsy--as if the Chinese government cares enough about the Falun Gong that they would try to determine the cause of death:
"In the first version of our report, appendix twelve had a photo of a
person with stitches after his body was cut open to remove organs. One comment we received back is that the stitches the photos show areconsistent with an autopsy.
We observe that organs may indeed be removed for autopsies in order to
determine the cause of death. A corpse which has been autopsied may wellhave stitches similar to those shown in the photo. Outside of China,except for organ donors, that is likely the reason why organs would be removed from a corpse.
Similarly, outside of China, when people are blood tested, typically,
the test is done for their own health. However, the suggestion that
Falun Gong practitioners who are tortured to the point of death are
blood tested for their health or that practitioners who are tortured to death are autopsied to determine the cause of death belies the torture experience.
The corpse whose photo we reproduced was that of Wang Bin. Beatings
caused the artery in Mr. Wang's neck and major blood vessels to break.
As a result, his tonsils were injured, his lymph nodes were crushed, and several bones were fractured. He had cigarette burns on the backs of his hands and inside his nostrils. There were bruises all over his body. Even though he was already close to death, he was tortured again at night. He finally lost consciousness. On the night of October 4, 2000, Mr. Wang died from his injuries.
The purpose of an autopsy report is to determine the cause of death when
the cause is otherwise unknown. But in the case of Wang Bin, the cause
of death was known before his organs were removed. The suggestion that
Wang bin would be autopsied to determine the cause of death after he was tortured to death is not plausible. There was no indication that the family of Wang Bin was asked for consent before the organs of the victim were removed nor provided an autopsy report afterwards. The suggestion
of an autopsy is not a tenable explanation for the stitches on Wang
Bin's body."
Janet, my blog profile is open to the public, you can email me to obtain a copy of the pathology review of Appendix 20 Case 1.
This offer applies to everyone here:
- Kilgour neglected things such as the 'Y' incisions in the neck area. Their purpose is to reveal the hyoid bone for signs of strangulation, eg. murder investigation. Not to mention there's no neck organ to harvest.
- Also, removal of the heart and brain is consistent with accepted autopsy practice, also there's no such thing as brain transplant.
- Finally, Wang Bin's autopsy, murder investigation, and subsquent arrest of official involved in Wang's death, was documented by none other than Falun Gong themselves:
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html
The original 11/2000 Clearwisdom article made no mention of organ harvesting.
Why was he tortured to death, Bobby?
Not for the organs, obviousely.
So quick to change the subject? Since you didn't request the pathology review, I'll take it you conceed the point that Appendix 20 Case 1 has been contradicted.
Heck some of the medical details in Appendix 20 Case 1 would not be possible without an autopsy. Kilgour basically twisted facts to fit his agenda.
I don't know why Wang died while under police custody, but the responsible offical was arrested after the murder investigation.
If the Chinese government didn't care about its citizens, a murder investigation would not have been conducted, and the jail official would not have been held responsible.
So when African Americans dies disproportionally while under police custody - does that prove we too run death camps in America?
Not drawing "moral equivlance", just illustrating the fallacy of "conviction by inference".
Auschwitz is a serious charge requiring serious proof. Made up story and allegory of "Schindler's List" ain't gonna cut it.
That's not to say China's perfect and doesn't have problems or abuses. Quite the opposite.
Even with Falun Gong's nefarious indictments stripped away, there is still ample evidence China has a huge problem when it comes to their society's moral, ethical standars on the dignity and treatment of the condemned.
So my question to Mr. Smith - why go the "sexy/sensational" route? Does the question of ethics come into consideration?
I remember during the cold war days when ordinary human rights abuse wasn't good enough, we had to accuse the Russsians of eating babies.
Hi Wesley, I thought you might be interested in reading this piece about Bobby Fletcher/Charles Liu who's been all over the blogosphere discrediting the organ harvesting report as you probably know by now.
Western Standard (Alberta): Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live
organ harvesting, China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation
campaign
April 9, 2007 Monday
Final Edition
HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting,
China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign
BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard
BODY:
He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet
blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and
sends e-mails to anyone--anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence
that the Chinese government "harvests" and sells live organs from political
prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong--the group which first
brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light--and the Epoch Times
newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China's
Communist government. And he's not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a
40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah,
Wash., and does business in China.
Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun
Gong supporters--in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer--have
accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a
disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and
deliberately wasting everyone's time.
It's a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as "a bunch of kooky friends
making unfounded accusations. It's just a bunch of blog BS." As for why he
devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting
allegations, he says, "My position is that I simply don't agree with their
brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from
anti-Communist party, to anti-China, . . . and recently it's morphed into
this anti-Chinese hysteria and that's going to be hurting people," he says.
As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.
He doesn't really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year
called "The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre" under the name of Bobby
Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the
Western Standard's online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250
casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that
night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at at least ten times
that).
Liu's actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese
government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of
false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting
accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese
government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there
was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in
a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work
department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its
message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies
through their Disinformation Department.
Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China's
macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from
Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional
committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing.
"[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from
both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair," says Kilgour.
"I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have
other things to do."
Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour's co-author, David Matas,
really doesn't know what to make of Liu. "I don't know who he is, but what
he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese
government," Matas says.
The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met
with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had
sent e-mails to politicians--and their staff--prior to the meetings. "The
only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese
government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those
people," Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find
information on the Internet or in any public place about who we're meeting
with, where and when." He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu,
all of which he's ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.
GRAPHIC:
Colour Photo: CP, Dave Cahn; David Kilgour (left) and David Matas,
co-authors of a report on China's organ harvesting industry: How does Liu
know who they're meeting with? ;
LOAD-DATE: March 29, 2007
Mr. Fletcher/Liu is in fact not a Christian, and admitted as much on my own blog. He merely implies that he is for propaganda effect.
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