Wednesday, November 29, 2006

Transhumanists and "Human Dignity"

Oxford professor Nick Bostrom, one of the leading lights of the transhumanist movement, has a new paper out ("In Defense of Post Human Dignity") in which he argues that there is no need to fear the post human future if we all agree that all forms of post humanity have equal dignity. Here is how he puts it:

"Transhumanists...see human and posthuman dignity as compatible and complementary. They insist that dignity, in its modern sense, consists in what we are and what we have the potential to become, not in our pedigree or our causal origin. What we are is not a function solely of our DNA but also of our technological and social context. Human nature in this broader sense is dynamic, partially human-made, and improvable. Our current extended phenotypes (and the lives that we lead) are markedly different from those of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. We read and write; we wear clothes; we live in cities; we earn money and buy food from the supermarket; we call people on the telephone, watch television, read newspapers, drive cars, file taxes, vote in national elections; women give birth in hospitals; life-expectancy is three times longer than in the Pleistocene; we know that the Earth is round and that stars are large gas clouds lit from inside by nuclear fusion, and that the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old and enormously big. In the eyes of a hunter-gatherer, we might already appear 'posthuman'. Yet these radical extensions of human capabilities--some of them biological, others external--have not divested us of moral status or dehumanized us in the sense of making us generally unworthy and base. Similarly, should we or our descendants one day succeed in becoming what relative to current standards we may refer to as posthuman, this need not entail a loss dignity either."

Nicely written, but inapt. There is no fundamental difference between the ancestors Bostrom references and ourselves. They were us, fully human despite their far lower levels of technology. Indeed, their achievement of taming fire is just as impressive as our making it to the moon. And I would match the cave drawings in France with the greatest art in the Louvre.

But let's not get into that for now. My primary problem with transhumanism is the arrogant presumption that parents should be able to design their offspring to order, as if children were a Dell computer or a pedigree dog. What a concept. Parenting would become about fulfilling the parents' yearnings through their child rather than (ideally) accepting the child that comes, whoever he or she is, with unconditional love and assisting our child to mature and develop into the person they want to be.

I know, I know. Parents make their children take piano lessons, and some argue that genetically altering them to be musical is little different. But genetic alterations would be set in stone, as it were, and would pass down the generations. A kid can always quit piano lessons and start to work on cars. Would one ever be able to escape the yearnings set in motion by raw biology caused by genetic engineering or other transhumanist enhancements?

The bottom line is this: Transhumanism exhibits a combination of solipsism and obsession with control, bad enough when it involves oneself, but definitely wrong, in my book, when imposed on another. Or to put it another way, if Charlie modified his features to look like Catman, I would feel badly for him, but Charlie would only be affecting himself. But Charlie should not be allowed to manufacture Kitten Boy, because he had an affinity for cats. That would not be parenting, but slave mastering.

Some of my other comments about transhumanism, can be found here and here.

18 Comments:

At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

It seems to me that your major qualm with transhumanism and eugenics, is not so much the purpose, but rather the methods.

I don't see any moral difference between the common and acceptable forms of human "selective breeding" (i.e., screening for genetic diseases, picking a blue-eyed athletic lawyer's sperm in a sperm bank, etc...) and the most invasive forms of germ-line recombinant DNA technology.

Both distort nature, both are race engineering (broadly defined eugenics), both will set in stone genes for generations; thus I see no moral difference.

But the level of intereference is certainly different. As you point out and which I agree with, a lot should not be forced onto people, thus I cannot support involuntary euthanasia and sterilization.

Is recombination of the DNA of an embryo too far along the involuntary track? I admit that's a gray area, but if done with safeguards (i.e., safely and the genetic knowledge of the child is protected from future discrimination - all big IFs), then I say it's OK.

But I think the ideal behind eugenics, transhumanism, etc...all builds on commonly accepted principles.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

I doubt (but don't want to put words into his mouth) that Wesley would consider it okay to pick the sperm of a "blue-eyed lawyer" from a sperm bank. I certainly wouldn't, but that's part of the problem with sperm banks to begin with, isn't it? They are obviously intended to be used in exactly that fashion. Same for eggs. I've read some of the advertisements for female eggs, purchased from young women at Ivy League colleges.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Mike Baughman said...

"It seems to me that your major qualm with transhumanism and eugenics, is not so much the purpose, but rather the methods."

As far as I am concerned, neither the purpose nor the methods are morally acceptable. Trying to "improve" humanity by any means, no matter how seemingly benign, necessarily involves judging some humans to be of lower value than others based solely on factors beyond that person's control.

The difference between breeding for a trait such as musical ability and making Junior take piano lessons was put very well in a comment I read on another blog:

http://telicthoughts.com/wp-trackback.php?p=1062

"The difference is easy to see, and quite significant. The difference is that breeding people to achieve certain abilities exalts those abilities above their personal humanity and dignity. It exalts the idea of humankind as an ability-generating resource, rather than a group of individuals with God-given significance. Forcing a child to learn something is, most often, cruel and demeaning (I'm thinking algebra), but does not of necessity diminish their innate importance as an individual human being."

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger T E Fine said...

Royale -

I have a book suggestion for you. Actually, it's a trillogy. I don't know what kinds of novels you're interested in, but if you get a chance, check out THE MAGE WINDS trillogy by Mercedes Lackey: WINDS OF FATE, WINDS OF CHANGE, and WINDS OF FURY.

They're fantasy novels, set on a different planet, with magic, polytheism as the norm, lots of strange creatures, action, a little sex for flavor... and they talk about transhumanism out in front.

One of the main characters is a cat girl named Nyara, who was crafted in the womb by her father to have a slave mentality and to have feline features, including fur and slitted cat eyes.

The reason I suggest the books is that it's hard to describe the potential problems in such a set-up without telling a story to illustrate it. You and I disagree on the morality of genetic transhumanism: You acknowledge that IF certain measures are taken, then you're okay with them, and I am flat-out against them, but I'm hard-pressed to explain why without rambling.

I also recommend FORESTS OF THE NIGHT, by S. Andrew Swann. This novel is specifically about transhumanism as presented by modern science, set in America in the future, with animals being selectively created with human-like minds. It's much shorter than the hulking trillogy I mentioned before, but it's a good book, has some sequals that are good, and between this novel and the trillogy above, convinced me that transhumanism is not the way to go.

I know I'm selecting speculative fiction instead of hard science books, but science goes only so far. After that, human emotions get in the way. You can say "IF certain safeguards are met, then it's okay," but you never see how far those safeguards can be pushed until you experience the situation yourself. Speculative fiction lets one observe the outcome of a senario without the bloodshed on your door step.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

But Wesley has, in other posts, said it was OK to screen sperm/ova for genetic diseases. He even called it a public health concern. It was just last week, I'll be happy to find it.

Inherent in that belief is the realization that those with genetic diseases are less worthy of life than those without it. He just drew the line at conception, which to me is a method distinction. I think the overwhelming majority of people would think this is OK.

But still, then those with genetic diseases are less worthy of being conceived than those without. If we're honest with what this means, it is the principle and goal behind eugenics is morally sound. The line drawing should be with the methods.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

Again, not to put words in Wesley's mouth, but surely wanting a blue-eyed child of a lawyer and selecting sperm for that reason is rather different from screening sperm for genetic diseases. Failing to have blue eyes or the genes of a lawyer father is not per se a privation for the individual. Having a disease is. As I'm opposed to in vitro fertilization, I would object to both because both involve in vitro making of children. But I suspect Wesley and others who take his approach would draw the line right between those two.

The business about making a child practice piano is ludicrous as an analogy for eugenics and breeding for traits. It's good for kids (not cruel) to be made to work at things they don't always enjoy at the time. It prepares them for life in all kinds of ways. It's good for kids to appreciate music, even if they don't have a lot of talent, because music is one of the wonderful things of life. It's good for kids who do in fact have musical talent to develop it by lessons and practice, because developing the talents one has and learning to do things with excellence is, in the end, fulfilling in a very important human way. A different child might have different abilities to develop. Making a talented child work on his talent involves accepting the child he already is, as-is, as given, observing this, and guiding him in his work accordingly. And so on and so forth. Even a rank secularist should realize all of this and not bring up such a silly analogy.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Royale, they are right. Screening sperm and ova for a genetic defect is not eugenics and it isn't destroy ing human life.

Killing a baby born with genetic defects is eugenics. Genetically engineering a kid to have qualities the parents want to fulfill themselves, is eugenics. Seeking blue eyed making sperm may or may not be eugenics, but is relatively innocuous.

Of course, one can find something unethical and not want to make it illegal. Persuasion does have its place.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

See, that is my point.

The point/ purpose of eugenics and transhumanism, as I see it, is to genetically improve the human race.

Where you differ is HOW this is done. You allow screening, but not euthanasia. That is perfectly fine.

But by screening, by even doing that "innocuous" form, we are injecting values into what should be conceived, which injects the values of what should live and what the next generation of the human race should look like. By genetically screening for Down Syndrome or breast cancer, you are directing and engineering the human race away from the "natural" and chiseling away the dignity of a human being with Down syndrome or genetically-derived breast cancer.

The difference again, is method, not the goal. You - in your mind, are not killing someone, but rather, preventing someone from existing.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

No, it is a difference of degree and kind. To sort through sperm to prevent a genetic illness or disability is not at all the same thing as designing progeny to please one's own desires and setting that alteration in concrete to flow down the generations. Nor is it to seek to create a "superior" form of "post humanity."

Nuance, please.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

Well, for one thing, it doesn't follow that a person is inconsistent if he regards some means as wrong and others as right. Feeding your kids with peanut butter is a right means to the end of their being nourished. Feeding them with your noisy neighbor is wrong. Just for example.

But in any event, a human race "improved as much as possible" is rather a different goal from a human being freed of some specific disease.

Moreover, I must be frank: I've read some of Bostrom's stuff, and he's a bit of a kook. He doesn't just want a sort of super-wonderful human race, hubristic and misguided though that is in itself. He wants humans to be able to turn themselves into computers and download themselves into silicon-based hardware so as to be immortal in the form of computers. Really. I'm not making this up. That this would be improving the human race is...dubitable.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

"No, it is a difference of degree and kind"

That is precisely my point. It is a difference of degree and kind (i.e., METHODS), but the objective is the same - to improve the human race. You called it "public health."

But, as well, doing so lowers the dignity of the people with the genetic condition, by saying that they should not even be conceived.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

T E Fine - those books sound interesting. I'll check them out sometime. I love speculative sci-fi and have even modestly contributed to the genre with my own short, unpublished stories.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

Wesley,

I feel we may be talking past each other and I don't want us to keep making the same arguments.

So, tell me what you think of this, and I then I'll leave this topic alone:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/11/richard_dawkins_a_eugenicist.php

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Well, I wasm't exactly "forced" to retract, I chose to retract because I found out that the quotation was part of a larger excerpt and the title was not Dawkins', but never mind. It was the right thing to do.

I disagree that human exceptionalism must be based in religion, and I don't do that. I am pleased that the writer sees the problem with eugenics. And he is right, that the threat to human exceptionalism is a core problem with eugenics. And the writer and I certainly agree about animal rights ideology.

I think his history of the Nazis is a little off, but is not untrue. (The doctors were not forced to do it, and money was indeed, a large part of it, but they also believed that killing the disabled was a 'healing treatment.' Moreover, it wasn't available to Jews at first precisely because it was seen as beneficent.)

Eugenics wasn't just the Nazis, of course. Indeed, its core principle that humans can be culled into better and worse categories is the problem with eugenics that in my view, contrary to your writer, is intrinsic to the belief system. Read Edwin Black's WAR AGAINST THE WEAK, the best history of American eugenics I have read.

Thanks for referring that post to me. I will look at it again.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Upon second reading, he also has some of the same issues I do with what Dawkins said about enhancement, which is interesting.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

No problem. I read as much as I can on these topics, as much as I can get away with at work that is ;)

ps - I responded to the biotech patent question.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger T E Fine said...

Royale -

I hope you find the novels interesting on many levels.

I enjoy talking with you, and with mtraven; you've both been a lot of fun to debate with, but most of my counter-arguments to your thoughts are based on personal observation and "gut level feelings" from what I've experienced myself. Since I really can't offer you statistics for my beliefs, I think this is the closest I can come. By the way, thanks for letting me know you're a writer, too. It's always fun to meet others who enjoy writing.

 
At December 01, 2006 , Blogger Royale said...

T E Fine,

I'm an amateur writer, but biotech/pharma lawyer by trade.

Here's a little sci-fi piece I wrote about which is the highest species. It's my homage to Voltaire's Micromegas.

http://royalerant.blogspot.com/2006/10/welcome-to-oinkworld.html

 

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